Pharoahe Monch – We Are At W.A.R. Pt 2
In the conclusion of TWV’s chat with Pharoahe Monch, the rapper talks working with Diddy, how Geffen/MCA almost killed his career and why he didn’t sign with Jay-Z.
The Well Versed: You mentioned the “Intro.” That was the only track you received production credits for on W.A.R. Throughout your career, you’ve been producing. What was the decision behind the producers you wanted to work with this time? Like for example, Fyre Department [produced “The Grand Allusion”]. I thought that was an awesome arrangement they came with and I know recently they added the live drums to the mix. But I don’t necessarily think of an album with that type of Fyre Department production on the same album as Marco Polo for example. It’s an eclectic range.
Pharoahe Monch: I just wanted to be free and I don’t care about that. I have beats now that are fucking remarkable that I just didn’t think fit and the first version of [“The Grand Allusion”] I just sampled King Crimson and the shit was hot. I rhymed on it and it was hot. I did it at Marco Polo’s house because he had some shit there. I was like, “Can I use this?” because I was doing vocals there and I was like, “Let’s scoop this and do it here.” And we just looped it and it was hot. And then I had somebody play it out on the keyboard and the shit came out dope and Marco was totally against replaying a lot of shit, but the shit sounds fucking crazy. And then I had the band actually play the shit over so there’s three versions of the song. When it got to the band interpretation I was like, whatever it’s my idea — they did the work — it’s not about that. I need the love. I need the love. I mean, this next record — my manager would chop me in the throat if he heard me say, “Next record.” On my next record, I’m going to be doing a lot more production on it.
TWV: Do you have a title?
PM: I’m not going to do that. [Laughs] W.A.R. is the title. [Laughs]
TWV: You know, I personally want to thank you. My first job covering anything was the 2009 Brooklyn Hip-Hop Festival and you rocked there. You were the headliner and it was the biggest interview I ever had at that point. But you talked a lot about W.A.R. then. You were talking in anticipation of it. You were talking about how hard it was going to be in comparison to Desire. The interesting thing now after hearing [W.A.R.], it feels like Internal Affairs meets Desire. It’s real hard at moments. Then it’s real soulful, almost gospel in some moments. Then last week you confirmed that “Calculated Amalgamation” was the last song added. How many iterations have you gone through with W.A.R.? If some tracks were made during Desire, and up to a month ago you were still adding tracks…
PM: Not many. The truth is, I like working in studios. I got an MP 2000 XL and a couple pieces of production equipment but I don’t have a lot of recording equipment. I don’t have a lot of recording equipment so the truth is, going back and forth to the studio and getting the shit to sound right was just a real pain in the ass and a process that I would never want to go through again. But I love it. I don’t want to complain about the process. But you do a verse and a chorus and it’s like, “When can I get back into the studio again?” That’s part of the struggle that I feel is in the album, too. It wasn’t high end fruits, berries, zen-palate, Smart Water. It was like basement, Marco’s room, Exile’s fucking house with the fucking cat and whatever the fuck. It was real, “We got to get this shit done however we got to get it done.” [Laughs]
TWV: I’ve been listening to W.A.R. now for a month or so. I think it’s amazing. And especially because it embodies everything that you’re great at — your multi-syllabic rhyme schemes and all these lofty words journalists toss on as to describe your talent. I also feel like it’s very honest. It does embody some of the rage that’s happening in America right now in a lot of ways. And it does that without sounding bitter. Then I think about you as an artist and the way you can do a song with D’Angelo then turn around and do a song with Styles P. You can write tracks for Diddy and then you can drop a “Simon Says.” There’s a lot of range in what you’re able to do, the boxes you can step into. How do you foster that or cultivate that over the course of your career?
PM: I think I can attribute it to a couple of things which is trying to stay honest. As I’m at Rawkus and they’re merging into Geffen/MCA and they’re throwing these names at me about artists they want me to do songs with, I’m like, “I just can’t.” I can’t pull that off. I really think that one that’s true with Hip-Hop, whether it’s that, whether it’s this, I think the fan notices your honesty. Like my manager was saying, Will.I.Am is so honest in his pop-ness; in his willingness to make these songs that it’s all the way that. It’s Super Bowl that. It’s “I GOT A FEELING!” — so that. You got to make a decision where your line is and where you want to be. At that point, I was just like, “I can’t. The risk of this shit ruining my career, I can’t take that risk.”
TWV: Who did they want you to work with?
PM: Excuse me?
TWV: What artist did they suggest you work with?
PM: Can’t do that! [Laughs] I can’t do that. So, we legally got lawyers and fought for years. The layover wasn’t just me fucking around fucking smoking weed and doing fucking nothing. We legally had to fight three and a half years to get out of that contract situation. And when I was let go, I was like, “This is crazy. I don’t know if I ever want to sign a contract again.” And I toured and I went on the road with Mos [Def] and [Talib Kweli]. The “Breed Love Odyssey” [tour] and doing little shows and fortunate enough to be trying out new music. We were doing “Desire” and all this shit before I had a deal because I had started fucking with Denaun [Porter] and Alchemist on that album. Let’s perform “Desire.” Let’s perform these songs and people were like, “Whoa, what was that shit?” And then Talib’s manager was at one of the shows and seeing the response and was like, “Yo, what the fuck? What are you doing? You can’t just keep this shit for yourself on some fun, games shit. You gotta put out music.” At the time, the only way I knew how to do it was that old way. I was like, “I want posters and packaging and all this shit. And which label? Which label am I going to sign to?” And fortunately, or unfortunately, I probably went through the last hurrah of that shit.
By the time I got the publishing deal and me and Diddy was on the same publishing and the same publisher was like, “He’s looking for writers” and sat down with [Diddy] and played him my shit — “Desire” and “Hold On” and “Body Baby” and he was like, “Yo, this shit is crazy.” I was working on my album while I was writing for his and it got a buzz. I kind of had a bidding war between Sony, [Bad Boy] and SRC. But before I signed, in my heart I was like, “I want to sit down with Jay-Z. He’s starting this new shit at Roc-A-Fella and I want him to hear “When The Gun Draws” and I want him to hear these songs and I want him to tell me, “Yes or No.” So I knew some people that knew him very well and I know he knows me and I’m like, “I don’t care if he signs me or not. I just want to feel his energy about where he’s at with it.” And I played him some shit and he’s like on his cell, whatever, people are coming in and he’s like, “Oh, that jacket is fly but don’t use those colors.” I’m sitting there and shit is playing and “When The Gun Draws” comes on and he’s like, “What the fuck?! What the fuck is that?!” I’m like, “Word? That’s the shit you like?” He’s like, “This shit is crazy, Pharoahe! This shit is crazy, B! You should’ve played this first!” So I’m like, “OK.” So we start talking and he’s like, “So here’s what’s going on, if I was to fuck with you and I’m doing this, I would have to give you the smallest budget ever because this is how the industry is changing right now. If the budget goes over here and you come out, your project is going to be shelved. That’s plain and simple.” Meanwhile I had some deals on the table and I’m like, “OK. Cool. Peace, man. Alright.” [Laughs] But it was changing then. Even my DJ was like, “Are you sure you don’t want to be independent? Why would you do this?” But I was still in that mind frame at the time.
TWV: This is a standard question I ask everybody and I’m more interested in the perspective of people who really have perspective. Organized Konfusion dropped in 1994. You just described the cultural change and the economic change that has happened within Hip-Hop within in the past five years. You’ve seen so much. But at this point, as you approach the release of W.A.R., your third solo album, sixth overall — out of everything you’ve experienced, what still surprises you about Hip-Hop?
PM: A couple of things, but of recent because we travel so much, I would say Brazil was the most illest experience. How the music transcends culturally and translates culturally is still amazing to me. In it’s purest form, you could feel out or that person that I’m talking about who deals with this, those fans that we were in front of when we were in Brazil, when we went out to the after parties in the clubs, it was like shoes, girls, everything one would expect. And they were playing Gang Starr [and the crowd erupted]. They were playing Smif-N-Wessun [and the crowd erupted]. And we were just like, I don’t want to say time warp, but they were like, “We want shit that feels the way we need things to feel.” I know those people exist, but to just watch it and see how that stuff resonates, it makes me sometimes sad that there might be a generation of kids that miss out on Gang Starr and [A Tribe Called Quest] and Organized and Brand Nubian just because they’re being told like, “This is that and this is this and this is the line that’s being drawn.” When I was coming up, I’m listening to Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye and music that’s much older but I’m embracing it because it’s good music. So it made me want to go and find out. There are a lot of kids that are doing that now. A kid will be in high school and tell me, “Yo, you’re Organized Konfusion shit was better than the shit you are doing now.” And I’ll be like, “Wow! That’s crazy.” Hip-Hop is so worldly, that some people can still detect the truth of it still amazes me.
